Discussion:
Another Sales Blunder
(too old to reply)
Tony Reeves
2006-05-23 23:43:39 UTC
Permalink
Dale Ghent
2006-05-23 23:48:08 UTC
Permalink
Rich Teer
2006-05-23 23:59:32 UTC
Permalink
I thought you said in your first paragraph that your goals weren't
vendor driven. But then you make a stink about a vendor's choice of
presentation software based on what vendor that software was from.
I think you're missing the point: Sun, as a vendor of software, should
where ever possible eat it's own dog food. That means presentations
and documents done in Star Office, the browser ebing Mozilla or Firefox,
and the OS being Solaris if possible. (I'll cut sales critters some slack,
and let 'em run Windoze, but there's no excuse for not using other bits of
Sun's stack.)
--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA, OpenSolaris CAB member

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-group.com/rich


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Glynn Foster
2006-05-24 02:41:53 UTC
Permalink
Hey,
Post by Rich Teer
I thought you said in your first paragraph that your goals weren't
vendor driven. But then you make a stink about a vendor's choice of
presentation software based on what vendor that software was from.
I think you're missing the point: Sun, as a vendor of software, should
where ever possible eat it's own dog food. That means presentations
and documents done in Star Office, the browser ebing Mozilla or Firefox,
and the OS being Solaris if possible. (I'll cut sales critters some slack,
and let 'em run Windoze, but there's no excuse for not using other bits of
Sun's stack.)
Apparently most of Sun's Java developers were presenting on Windows at
JavaOne, and there's very little Solaris being run. Seemingly 'Windows'
is their main target market - all of which is rather disappointing.


Glynn


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palowoda
2006-05-24 03:00:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glynn Foster
Hey,
Post by Rich Teer
I thought you said in your first paragraph that your goals weren't
vendor driven. But then you make a stink about a vendor's
choice of
Post by Glynn Foster
Post by Rich Teer
presentation software based on what vendor that software was from.
I think you're missing the point: Sun, as a vendor of software, should
where ever possible eat it's own dog food. That means presentations
and documents done in Star Office, the browser ebing Mozilla or Firefox,
and the OS being Solaris if possible. (I'll cut sales critters some slack,
and let 'em run Windoze, but there's no excuse for not using other bits of
Sun's stack.)
Apparently most of Sun's Java developers were presenting on Windows at
JavaOne, and there's very little Solaris being run. Seemingly 'Windows'
is their main target market - all of which is rather disappointing.
Sun knows how to target a market?

---Bob






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John D Groenveld
2006-05-24 03:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Phillip Bruce
2006-05-24 00:11:46 UTC
Permalink
Just returned from a Sun presentation around components of the Java
Enterprise System. My role there is to determine an architecture
based on
Business Requirements as opposed to vendor driven.
The presentation was on a laptop running Windows, most of the
presentation
in Power Point and browser used was IE.
WTF, I am saying we don't need to use Microsoft servers and
products, and
the Sun sales person demonstrates otherwise.....
I thought you said in your first paragraph that your goals weren't
vendor driven. But then you make a stink about a vendor's choice of
presentation software based on what vendor that software was from.
Any color you want as long as it's black?
Just sayin'
/dale
Dale,

I still think that Tony point is valid, I hate to say it I wish Sun would
NOT use any Microsoft product in doing presentation. With the
ability of Staroffice available to Sun Employees should run be running
Solaris with Staroffice and presenting their solution unless told by a
customer specifically that they need Windblows. Personally, I think
Sun using Windows for presentation purposes is a insult to Sun itself.
I bet Bill Gates is having a field day with this one. Staroffice 8 is very
capable of rendering Powerpoint presentation as well as MS documentation
and be able to export to those versions. This is something Sun should be
making a clear point.

If you come to a customer site they will expect Sun to be running Solaris
on their laptops NOT Windows.

It does make an impression and counts that Sun uses their products in front
of the customer. That says a thousand words on it own.

Just think of the cost alone Sun could SAVE by not using Microsoft.

I know that Sun will have Microsoft customers and that will be appropriate
type of customers to use Windows to present to their customers. This
makes all the more compelling reason for using WINE on Solaris. Or
they could end up using XEN to have another virtual server running
windows. I like to try that one myself.

I really do get tired of seeing Sun personnel at a customer site come in
with their laptop and the first thing that fires up is windows.

When a customer like Tony wants to see Solaris Solutions it make more
sense that the presenter has Solaris on their laptop.

Besides that where do I ever see Gates & Co ever run Solaris to present
Windows solution on?

Phillip




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Dale Ghent
2006-05-24 00:38:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Bruce
I still think that Tony point is valid, I hate to say it I wish Sun would
NOT use any Microsoft product in doing presentation. With the
ability of Staroffice available to Sun Employees should run be running
Solaris with Staroffice and presenting their solution unless told by a
customer specifically that they need Windblows
Perhaps you're right in one respect, but I still (respectfully) call
BS on the original complaint as it sounds they're more enthralled
with whatever the presenter has on his or her (perhaps personal)
laptop than with the content of the presentation itself.

Sun's dog food, as you point out, is Solaris and it's app stack. The
original plaintiff's dog food is their exclaimed/implied vendor
neutrality. Chow down, folks.

/dale




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John Weekley
2006-05-24 01:11:44 UTC
Permalink
John Martinez
2006-05-24 14:13:36 UTC
Permalink
Sad to say, but salesperson's choice of desktop OS does speak
volumes to
customers about that persons knowledge/confidence in their products.
And in Sun's case, all the pieces necessary are available from Sun to
produce a solid presentation. The only piece missing for a true
Solaris
salesforce is a mandate from the top to "make it happen."
OTOH, *most* salespeople were raised in the windows world, and that's
all they know and that's all they're willing to learn. Not all are
like
that, but most. Do I get a vaguely uneasy feeling when a salesperson
won't "eat the dogfood?" Yes. Does it color my impressions of
whatever
product is being presented? Yup, you bet. Is is fair? From the
salesperson's perspective, probably not. Life's tough, and the
"customer is always right." Even when they're wrong.
I think that until Sun sales starts really eating their own dog food,
lots of these mobile technologies will just trickle into Solaris.

But, Windows is like a bad crack habit that just can't be kicked
overnight.

-john


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C***@Sun.COM
2006-05-24 14:30:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Martinez
I think that until Sun sales starts really eating their own dog food,
lots of these mobile technologies will just trickle into Solaris.
It needs to "work" before Sun sales can be fored to use it.

Where "works" is a combination of:

- it's installed on the laptop and comes with the features
the Sales rep needs (or ready to install)
- it's easy enough for him to use
- it's supported by our IT organization.

After all the hard work we did on Solaris 10/Nevada, our own
SUn-on-Sun IPsec based VPN, wireless work, toolkits for easy
mobile use (inetmenu, netprof), battery monitor, power management
for AMD64 and now also Enhanced Intel Speedstep, our internal IT
department has put together a single DVD image for sales folks
to install which includes all they need.

So while for techies there's really no excuse, until a month or
so ago, there wasn't really a viable non-techy package. So that
was limited to the enthusiasts and folks with easy access to
more technical folks. With outsourcing much of our IT the latter
did become much harder too.

We had a program to support Solaris on laptops before but that
effectively ended with Solaris 2.5.1.

4 releases of neglect takes time to put right.

For apple it's really easy to do too: they only have two or three
systems to worry about and they can select the parts.

J.Random laptop is just so much harder.

Casper


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Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
2006-05-24 14:44:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@Sun.COM
For apple it's really easy to do too: they only have two or three
systems to worry about and they can select the parts.
J.Random laptop is just so much harder.
When speaking of a product (Solaris), yes. When speaking of a
product for internal sales force use, no. You just select 1 (or a
couple) of approved laptops and that is all you buy/issue and that is
what you set up your people with

Chad

---
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
Your Web App and Email hosting provider
chad at shire.net





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C***@Sun.COM
2006-05-24 14:53:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
When speaking of a product (Solaris), yes. When speaking of a
product for internal sales force use, no. You just select 1 (or a
couple) of approved laptops and that is all you buy/issue and that is
what you set up your people with
I wish it were so simple.

We've started out with the Ferrari 3x00 - it lasted less than a year;
we now have the Ferrari 4000; but the first models (4005) are no longer for
sale and we have to use a 4006.

BTW, the 3400 and the 4000 have *no* hardware in common.

Then you can by Toshiba Tecra M3s.

Are they all the same? No, you can get them with completely different
graphics hardware, wireless, etc. And then only for a few months.

Dell, from all accounts, is even worse. They'll sell the supposedly
exact same machine (all specifications the same) but with significant
differences in the motherboard.

Making them *and* having the prototypes in house for software development
prior to release is really the only way to make this work with any
hardware.

Casper


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Dale Ghent
2006-05-24 14:54:53 UTC
Permalink
Tim Butler
2006-05-24 15:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@Sun.COM
With outsourcing much of our IT the latter
did become much harder too.
IBM Global Services? :-)

They can be difficult to work with.

tim






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Rich Teer
2006-05-24 17:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Tony Reeves
2006-05-24 01:03:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Bruce
Just returned from a Sun presentation around components of the Java
Enterprise System. My role there is to determine an architecture
based on
Business Requirements as opposed to vendor driven.
The presentation was on a laptop running Windows, most of the
presentation
in Power Point and browser used was IE.
WTF, I am saying we don't need to use Microsoft servers and
products, and
the Sun sales person demonstrates otherwise.....
I thought you said in your first paragraph that your goals weren't
vendor driven. But then you make a stink about a vendor's choice of
presentation software based on what vendor that software was from.
Any color you want as long as it's black?
Just sayin'
/dale
Dale,
I still think that Tony point is valid, I hate to say it I wish Sun would
NOT use any Microsoft product in doing presentation. With the
ability of Staroffice available to Sun Employees should run be running
Solaris with Staroffice and presenting their solution unless told by a
customer specifically that they need Windblows. Personally, I think
Sun using Windows for presentation purposes is a insult to Sun itself.
I bet Bill Gates is having a field day with this one. Staroffice 8 is very
capable of rendering Powerpoint presentation as well as MS documentation
and be able to export to those versions. This is something Sun should be
making a clear point.
It is worse than that. Sun has stated a commitment to OpenDocument. As
soon as that happened, ALL Sun presentations (Power Point, Documents etc.)
should have been converted to that format. No exceptions. What is the
point of touting an open standard and then not bothering to comply?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Dale Ghent
2006-05-24 01:53:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Reeves
It is worse than that. Sun has stated a commitment to
OpenDocument. As
soon as that happened, ALL Sun presentations (Power Point,
Documents etc.)
should have been converted to that format. No exceptions. What is the
point of touting an open standard and then not bothering to comply?
True, good points.

But come on, let's get realistic. For all the vitriol being spilled
here, one ought to consider some lessons taken from one's own (and I
would say more generally, the IT industry as a whole):

* It could have been the rep's personal laptop because his Ferrari broke

* Sun recently announced allegiance to ODF, but as well all know
about any IT org, implementing these kinds of changes all the way
down to the end-user takes time for political and/or technical
reasons. Raise your hand if your org turns on a dime.

* Perhaps the particular rep was new to Sun and his/her familiarity
was still with MS Office

* Perhaps the particular rep wasn't a true Sun employee, but from a
Sun VAR.

So anyway, let's put it in another perspective.

I'm a hot Solaris know-it-all applying for a job. On day 1 of this
job, I come in a whip out my Powerbook and get to work. Because I'm
supposed to be a Solaris admin (Sun sales rep) who is charged with
running Solaris servers (use Sun software) and convince my employer
that I know my stuff, would me using my Mac to get the job done
unnerve my employer? Should I be using a computer running Solaris if
I'm such a big solaris admin and am supposed to impress my employer
as being such?

No. Using my Mac to get the job done is my personal preference. I'm
not going to use a Solaris desktop just for the sake of using a
Solaris desktop and to make myself look good in some way to someone
else.

So while one might look at a Sun sales rep using Windows, yeah, I can
perhaps see myself giving a chuckle under my breath, but I'm not
going to let that distract me from the meat of why that sales rep is
standing there.

/dale


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Ian Collins
2006-05-24 02:03:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dale Ghent
So while one might look at a Sun sales rep using Windows, yeah, I can
perhaps see myself giving a chuckle under my breath, but I'm not
going to let that distract me from the meat of why that sales rep is
standing there.
Imagine yourself in a room full of windows users and admins, who you
have been trying to convince they can use something other than windows
on their desktop and servers. A rep form another vendor gets out his
laptop and fires up windows and powerpoint. You look around the room
and see all the smug looks on the windows die hards faces.

Doesn't do your case a lot of good does it?

I don't know about the US, but anything other than windows is a real
novelty here in NZ. It's a hard sell do get very conservative people to
change.

Ian



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Tony Reeves
2006-05-24 01:00:09 UTC
Permalink
Just returned from a Sun presentation around components of the Java
Enterprise System. My role there is to determine an architecture
based on
Business Requirements as opposed to vendor driven.
The presentation was on a laptop running Windows, most of the
presentation
in Power Point and browser used was IE.
WTF, I am saying we don't need to use Microsoft servers and
products, and
the Sun sales person demonstrates otherwise.....
I thought you said in your first paragraph that your goals weren't
vendor driven. But then you make a stink about a vendor's choice of
presentation software based on what vendor that software was from.
Any color you want as long as it's black?
Just sayin'
Perhaps I should have been more specific, but I was pretty pissed. The
organisation being presented to has been a Microsoft shop. I have been
trying to move it to the New World. But many here say that is not possible,
Microsoft is the only viable desktop and probably server option. I say
vendor independence is possible, Sun demonstrates that they need
Windows/Microsoft products to make sale.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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John Martinez
2006-05-24 14:10:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Reeves
Perhaps I should have been more specific, but I was pretty
pissed. The
organisation being presented to has been a Microsoft shop. I have been
trying to move it to the New World. But many here say that is not possible,
Microsoft is the only viable desktop and probably server option. I say
vendor independence is possible, Sun demonstrates that they need
Windows/Microsoft products to make sale.
I've made tongue-in-cheek comments to Sun sales folks for using
Windows before. I've gotten a myriad of responses. Most don't even
bring laptops, they just email us PDF's or PPT's before the meeting.

The reality is that Solaris (and I'll include Linux) are very usable
as stationary desktops, but do miss out a lot in the portable space.

One quick example. I was messing around with Ubuntu on an IBM T41
just lying around my office the other day after Sun's announcement. I
couldn't get wireless to work for the life of me. Then, I figured it
out. We need certificate-based authentication to the access point.
VPN is another struggle. You catch my drift.

Windows (don't use) and Mac OS X (my daily desktop/laptop system)
have it figured out, why is it taking Solaris and Linux so long to do
the same?

-john


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william_d_hathaway
2006-05-24 00:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Just returned from a Sun presentation around components of the Java
Enterprise System. My role there is to determine an architecture
based on
Business Requirements as opposed to vendor driven.
The presentation was on a laptop running Windows, most of the
presentation
in Power Point and browser used was IE.
WTF, I am saying we don't need to use Microsoft servers and
products, and
the Sun sales person demonstrates otherwise.....
While you may disdain the platform the salesperson used for the preso,
how does that have any bearing on whether the JES stack meets your
business requirements? (which is your stated criteria)

Most of the salespeople at the company I work for use Windows on their
laptops, but it certainly doesn't imply that we recommend customers
deploy JES on servers running Windows.

If the salesperson had used a Mac would that imply you need OSX in
your data center?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Dan Mick
2006-05-24 00:24:37 UTC
Permalink
Just returned from a Sun presentation around components of the Java
Enterprise System. My role there is to determine an architecture
based on
Business Requirements as opposed to vendor driven.
The presentation was on a laptop running Windows, most of the
presentation
in Power Point and browser used was IE.
WTF, I am saying we don't need to use Microsoft servers and
products, and
the Sun sales person demonstrates otherwise.....
While you may disdain the platform the salesperson used for the preso,
how does that have any bearing on whether the JES stack meets your
business requirements? (which is your stated criteria)
Most of the salespeople at the company I work for use Windows on their
laptops, but it certainly doesn't imply that we recommend customers
deploy JES on servers running Windows.
If the salesperson had used a Mac would that imply you need OSX in
your data center?
gotta agree. Horses for courses, and no one ever claimed that Solaris was
The One True Environment for *every* situation.

There are places where it shines. Why not accentuate those, as opposed to
Solaris Everywhere, No Matter What The Pain?

but a lot of folks disagree; it's either Our Team or Their Team, there's no
middle ground based on factual analysis. same disease as American politics.



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Jon LaBadie
2006-05-24 00:41:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Mick
Just returned from a Sun presentation around components of the Java
Enterprise System. My role there is to determine an architecture
based on
Business Requirements as opposed to vendor driven.
The presentation was on a laptop running Windows, most of the
presentation
in Power Point and browser used was IE.
WTF, I am saying we don't need to use Microsoft servers and
products, and
the Sun sales person demonstrates otherwise.....
While you may disdain the platform the salesperson used for the preso,
how does that have any bearing on whether the JES stack meets your
business requirements? (which is your stated criteria)
Most of the salespeople at the company I work for use Windows on their
laptops, but it certainly doesn't imply that we recommend customers
deploy JES on servers running Windows.
If the salesperson had used a Mac would that imply you need OSX in
your data center?
gotta agree. Horses for courses, and no one ever claimed that Solaris was
The One True Environment for *every* situation.
Do you mean that Solaris is NOT a good horse for presentations about JES?
--
Jon H. LaBadie ***@jgcomp.com
JG Computing
4455 Province Line Road (609) 252-0159
Princeton, NJ 08540-4322 (609) 683-7220 (fax)


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Dan Mick
2006-05-24 01:56:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon LaBadie
Post by Dan Mick
Post by william_d_hathaway
If the salesperson had used a Mac would that imply you need OSX in
your data center?
gotta agree. Horses for courses, and no one ever claimed that Solaris was
The One True Environment for *every* situation.
Do you mean that Solaris is NOT a good horse for presentations about JES?
Does it provide some overridingly good feature set for doing presentations?

Is it flexible wrt projectors, video resolution, remote input devices, audio?

are the software tools rich in presentation-quality extras?



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Ian Collins
2006-05-24 01:50:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Mick
Post by william_d_hathaway
While you may disdain the platform the salesperson used for the preso,
how does that have any bearing on whether the JES stack meets your
business requirements? (which is your stated criteria)
Most of the salespeople at the company I work for use Windows on their
laptops, but it certainly doesn't imply that we recommend customers
deploy JES on servers running Windows.
If the salesperson had used a Mac would that imply you need OSX in
your data center?
gotta agree. Horses for courses, and no one ever claimed that Solaris was
The One True Environment for *every* situation.
There are places where it shines. Why not accentuate those, as opposed to
Solaris Everywhere, No Matter What The Pain?
but a lot of folks disagree; it's either Our Team or Their Team, there's no
middle ground based on factual analysis. same disease as American politics.
In a windows (or any other for that matter) shop, there will always be
those who will look to exploit any minor nit with alternative products.
Why give them the ammunition?

There will also be those, often in strategic positions, who are close to
being convinced to make the change, seeing a sales person firing up
Solaris on their laptop (and being enthusiastic about it) and running a
presentation on StarOffice might just be enough to assuage their
doubts. Not to mention the impact on the large number of IT people out
there who still believe Solaris=Sparc.

There aren't any reasons not to run presentations form a Solaris laptops.

Ian



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Jon LaBadie
2006-05-24 03:30:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Collins
Post by Dan Mick
Post by william_d_hathaway
While you may disdain the platform the salesperson used for the preso,
how does that have any bearing on whether the JES stack meets your
business requirements? (which is your stated criteria)
Most of the salespeople at the company I work for use Windows on their
laptops, but it certainly doesn't imply that we recommend customers
deploy JES on servers running Windows.
If the salesperson had used a Mac would that imply you need OSX in
your data center?
gotta agree. Horses for courses, and no one ever claimed that Solaris was
The One True Environment for *every* situation.
There are places where it shines. Why not accentuate those, as opposed to
Solaris Everywhere, No Matter What The Pain?
but a lot of folks disagree; it's either Our Team or Their Team, there's no
middle ground based on factual analysis. same disease as American politics.
In a windows (or any other for that matter) shop, there will always be
those who will look to exploit any minor nit with alternative products.
Why give them the ammunition?
There will also be those, often in strategic positions, who are close to
being convinced to make the change, seeing a sales person firing up
Solaris on their laptop (and being enthusiastic about it) and running a
presentation on StarOffice might just be enough to assuage their
doubts. Not to mention the impact on the large number of IT people out
there who still believe Solaris=Sparc.
There aren't any reasons not to run presentations form a Solaris laptops.
If I were meeting a Chevy rep to talk about a fleet contract,
it would not leave a good impression if they arrived in a Ford.
--
Jon H. LaBadie ***@jgcomp.com
JG Computing
4455 Province Line Road (609) 252-0159
Princeton, NJ 08540-4322 (609) 683-7220 (fax)


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Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
2006-05-24 03:46:40 UTC
Permalink
John D Groenveld
2006-05-24 14:36:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon LaBadie
If I were meeting a Chevy rep to talk about a fleet contract,
it would not leave a good impression if they arrived in a Ford.
Its interesting that for the heaps of credit JS and company have
given Scott McNealy for rejecting Microsoft Chicago that the press
and analysts haven't asked why the experience for Java developers
is so much better on Microsoft's OS than on Mr McNealy and Mr Schwartz's.

BTW the earliest reference I can find with Google is Bangkok Post's
Tony Waltham November 1993 interview with Mr McNealy:
<URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=***@nwg.nectec.or.th>

John
***@acm.org



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Stefan Parvu
2006-05-24 18:30:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Mick
There are places where it shines. Why not accentuate those, as opposed to
Solaris Everywhere, No Matter What The Pain?
+1
Post by Dan Mick
but a lot of folks disagree; it's either Our Team or Their Team, there's no
middle ground based on factual analysis. same disease as American politics.
+1

Exactly. Not *everyone* should|must use Solaris. Windows and Linux bases systems are there
and they are gonna stay there for some time. The interesting part here is to
make all these things work together along with Solaris.

If one guy is running WinXP on his laptop for a presentation are you
gonna nuke him because he is from Sun and he is not running Solaris :)
Get serious. There will always gonna be people which are more comfortable
running WinXP or Linux than Solaris on some laptop. So what ? What does
that matter so much ? Do we *all* have to run Solaris ? And do *all* Sun
folks have to run Solaris ?

Gee, no offense but this reminds me of Ceausescu[1] time in Romania.
As Dan mentioned, it's either Our Team or Their Team :=)

stefan


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[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceausescu







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C***@Sun.COM
2006-05-24 18:39:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Parvu
If one guy is running WinXP on his laptop for a presentation are you
gonna nuke him because he is from Sun and he is not running Solaris :)
Get serious. There will always gonna be people which are more comfortable
running WinXP or Linux than Solaris on some laptop. So what ? What does
that matter so much ? Do we *all* have to run Solaris ? And do *all* Sun
folks have to run Solaris ?
And if flogging is going to happen, then I'm sure that it's
/our/ task and not our customer's tasks.

He, but next time you want to shame a sales/marketing person, why not
name him?

Casper


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Stefan Parvu
2006-05-24 18:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@Sun.COM
And if flogging is going to happen, then I'm sure that it's
/our/ task and not our customer's tasks.
:=)

My point is one: we made a very huge effort and progress
with S10 and SE. I think a lot of folks, techies and not-techies,
are running Solaris or SE at home, at job etc. But to think that everyone
should run Solaris, it is wrong in my view.

stefan








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Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
2006-05-24 18:56:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Parvu
Post by C***@Sun.COM
And if flogging is going to happen, then I'm sure that it's
/our/ task and not our customer's tasks.
:=)
My point is one: we made a very huge effort and progress
with S10 and SE. I think a lot of folks, techies and not-techies,
are running Solaris or SE at home, at job etc. But to think that everyone
should run Solaris, it is wrong in my view.
If you come to my office to sell me Solaris and you are not running
it yourself, I am not going to be impressed.

Like the example given: If you drive up in a Ford to sell me a fleet
contract of Chevys, you won't make the sale.

No one says that everyone should run Solaris. Just the people in
public trying to sell it (and related Sun technologies).

There is a reason Sun's stock price is around $4 or $5 (haven't
looked recently) and Apple's is $63 or so

Chad
Post by Stefan Parvu
stefan
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Stefan Parvu
2006-05-24 19:12:07 UTC
Permalink
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
2006-05-24 19:24:53 UTC
Permalink
C'mon. Maybe he is ok with WinXP ...
does that make a bad deal for you and JES then ?
Is this the criteria you use when you evaluate a product ?
It is one of those intangible impressions.
You check first what the guy is running on his laptop ?
If an Apple guy came in to me to sell me an XServe and was running on
a Windows laptop, I would notice and it would make an impression.
However, that doesn't happen. Steve would send his arse out on the
street in a heatbeat. Steve understands impressions.
What about QNX ? I have been using their products in
the past. Do you think they were presenting QNX 4 on a QNX
laptop ? Does that make QNX a bad or crappy OS ?
What do you think ?
Strawman. QNX doesn't sell laptop systems.

Sun does sell laptop capable systems. And SW like StarOffice, which
is available for Windows. And they support Mozilla/Firefox.

The truth of the matter is that when a Sun salesman goes into a
situation running Windows, he has already lost the sale. He may
actually get it if the people were predisposed to Sun, or truly don't
care, but he is going in with negative points due to first
impressions. Impressions matter. Again, there is a reason Apple's
stock is $63+ more or less and Sun's is in the gutter, comparatively
speaking. Apple is selling product and Sun is not selling so much.
Apple understands impressions / presentation. (I just got a refurb
Mac mini today to help with some SW I am developing and need to test
intel version with. Even the refurbs leave a good impression when
you open the box. Apple pays attention to "presentation." It leaves
warm and fuzzies which sticks with the user.)

Chad

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John D Groenveld
2006-05-25 19:09:10 UTC
Permalink
What about QNX ? I have been using their products in
the past. Do you think they were presenting QNX 4 on a QNX
laptop ? Does that make QNX a bad or crappy OS ?
What do you think ?
I think you're attacking windmills. We've had this argument here
(well actually not here but at a predecessor m/l) before.

Four or five years ago the Madhatters were effectively positioning
Solaris as a niche OS like QNX, but customers, including folks
here, partially convinced Management that was A Bad Idea.[tm]

We might have fully convinced Management that was A Bad Idea[tm]
had we held their feet to the fire for the StarOffice 7 debacle
and the countless examples before and after it of sales, marketing,
and investor material which Sun's salescritters, marketoons, and other
MBA types could view just fine on their Windows laptops but those of
us here who actually ate Sun's dogfood had more difficulty viewing.

Perhaps unlike QNX's RTOS niche, high margin/low volume big metal
server OSs do not have sustainable ecosystems; small systems always
win with their greater volumes, better price/performance, and large
developer communities.

Its past time for JS to heap some praise on Scott McNealy and company
for proving that theory when Sun killed the minis and its past time
for Mr McNealy to spell that truth out as part of Sun's HPUX and AIX
Away OpenDocument Presentation running on a mobile Solaris x64
workstation system.

Assuming StarImpress supports attaching audio clips and Sun's mobile
Solaris workstation supports audio, his presentation can have
"Once in a Lifetime" playing in the background.

John
***@acm.org
--
Same as it ever was...Same as it ever was...Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...Same as it ever was...Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...Same as it ever was...
<URL:http://www.talking-heads.net/lyrics_best.html>



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Stefan Parvu
2006-05-25 19:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Gents,
Post by John D Groenveld
Assuming StarImpress supports attaching audio clips and Sun's mobile
Solaris workstation supports audio, his presentation can have
"Once in a Lifetime" playing in the background.
I surrender :) I propose then we organize for all sales guys
a nice weekend outside town, we put them to download SE DVD or
CD images, to burn them and start installing that on their laptops :)
Lets see how long that weekend would be. Actually that
might be fun.

Yeah, my point was: they *should* use Solaris because that
is numero 1 OS in Sun. 100% agreed. But for certain business units this
is not 100% a valid fact. That must be fixed or maybe it won't...
That is Sun's management business to do. I think this happens everywhere
maybe in other companies...As somebody else said here about some Sun laptops...
well c'mon I don't consider Sun as selling laptops, or Sun as being
in that business, even if Sun has a laptop (one model) offer...

Meanwhile my proposal stands: one weekend outside town
"The booting camp festival" :) Hey, I will make this proposal
to our Sun Finland office.

cheers,
Stefan









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Al Hopper
2006-05-24 20:22:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
Post by Stefan Parvu
Post by C***@Sun.COM
And if flogging is going to happen, then I'm sure that it's
/our/ task and not our customer's tasks.
:=)
My point is one: we made a very huge effort and progress
with S10 and SE. I think a lot of folks, techies and not-techies,
are running Solaris or SE at home, at job etc. But to think that everyone
should run Solaris, it is wrong in my view.
If you come to my office to sell me Solaris and you are not running
it yourself, I am not going to be impressed.
+1
Post by Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
Like the example given: If you drive up in a Ford to sell me a fleet
contract of Chevys, you won't make the sale.
+1
Post by Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
No one says that everyone should run Solaris. Just the people in
public trying to sell it (and related Sun technologies).
+1

Its a question of perception. The engineers/developers understand that
JES will run on multiple platforms - but the person writing the check is
often not an engineer or developer. In that case, his/her perception
matters. IOW ... silly check-writing manager thinks ... ".. I know they
tell me that it's cross-platform, but they demo it on Windows. Agghh -
that must mean that windows is the best platform to run it on ... just
like my IT guys are telling me". And 24 hours later, same manager is
still thinking: "... what exactly is 'cross-platform' anyway ??". But he
won't ask someone what it means; after all, it might make him look silly!

The perceptions that a Sun JES demo *needs* to leave are:

- Java runs best on Sun hardware
- Java runs best on Solaris
- Java is part of the complete Sun software stack
- Java Enterprise System is an *enterprise* software stack and should run
on *enterprise* quality hardware and Operating Systems and provide
*enterprise* level availability and reliability. Translation: Sun
hardware and Solaris.
- Sun is a systems company

Anything that *might* leave the wrong perception with the customer, or
potential customer is simly bad business for Sun. And demoing on Windows
is bad business for Sun IMHO, whether done by a Sun employee or a Sun VAR.

JS is trying to build market share based on a complete Sun solution, as
far as possible. Sun must be perceived as eating their own dogfood for
this strategy to be effective IMHO.
Post by Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
There is a reason Sun's stock price is around $4 or $5 (haven't
looked recently) and Apple's is $63 or so
I only own 500 shares of SUNW. I won't tell you what I paid for them.
:(

Al Hopper Logical Approach Inc, Plano, TX. ***@logical-approach.com
Voice: 972.379.2133 Fax: 972.379.2134 Timezone: US CDT
OpenSolaris.Org Community Advisory Board (CAB) Member - Apr 2005


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Stefan Parvu
2006-05-24 20:37:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Al Hopper
- Java runs best on Sun hardware
- Java runs best on Solaris
- Java is part of the complete Sun software stack
- Java Enterprise System is an *enterprise* software stack and should run
on *enterprise* quality hardware and Operating Systems and provide
*enterprise* level availability and reliability. Translation: Sun
hardware and Solaris.
- Sun is a systems company
yesss, this is 100% correct and I 100% agree. Problem is
it will take a bit time until folks will get this picture and understand it.

stefan






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Alan Coopersmith
2006-05-24 20:44:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
Like the example given: If you drive up in a Ford to sell me a fleet
contract of Chevys, you won't make the sale.
But what would you expect them to drive if they're showing up to sell
you a fleet of 18-wheelers?
--
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Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering


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palowoda
2006-05-24 20:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Coopersmith
Post by Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
Like the example given: If you drive up in a Ford to sell me a fleet
contract of Chevys, you won't make the sale.
But what would you expect them to drive if they're showing up to sell
you a fleet of 18-wheelers?
A limo to the airport with a couple of first class tickets to
the factory.

---Bob







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Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
2006-05-24 21:02:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Coopersmith
Post by Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
Like the example given: If you drive up in a Ford to sell me a fleet
contract of Chevys, you won't make the sale.
But what would you expect them to drive if they're showing up to sell
you a fleet of 18-wheelers?
This is actually a strawman, but I will answer it anyway.

Depends which make of 18-wheelers. If the truck maker was a part of
a larger automotive group I would expect them to be driving something
from that Automotive group. For example, in the US, if they were
trying to sell me Freightliner, then I would expect them to be
driving a Dodge or other Chrysler product.

If it was some sort of Ford truck (not sure they have 18 wheelers
anymore but they do sell larger trucks) then a Ford product of some
sort. It could be a Jag or Volvo :-)

If it was the local Cummins repair guy coming to look over my fleet
of Cummin's driven 18 wheelers, I would look at him strangely if he
was driving a Ford PowerStroke and not a Dodge Cummins. If he came
by automobile, I wouldn't care.

True story: several times I have been to automotive dealerships that
offer a courtesy van. I have noticed what make of van they used and
it it was related to their own models they were selling. (If they
made a van, that is). I DID notice and more than once have noticed it.

(this was a strawman because we are not talking about salesman for a
company that doesn't sell their own OS. In other words, if the
salesman were from Oracle, I wouldn't care as much what he used as
Oracle does not yet sell an OS. So the 18 wheeler argument, where
they do NOT sell cars, is a strawman. Sun DOES sell an OS and
desktop SW so the car salesman is a diorect analogy, the 18 wheeler,
not)

Chad
Post by Alan Coopersmith
--
Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering
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Dan Mick
2006-05-24 22:07:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
If you come to my office to sell me Solaris and you are not running
it yourself, I am not going to be impressed.
So if I come to sell you server-room blade systems, and my phone is running
Windows CE instead of Solaris, I lose?

What about my Palm?


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Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
2006-05-24 22:18:38 UTC
Permalink
Dale Ghent
2006-05-24 22:28:44 UTC
Permalink
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
2006-05-24 22:35:03 UTC
Permalink
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
2006-05-24 22:38:59 UTC
Permalink
Matt Banks
2006-05-24 23:33:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
Strawman
Sun is not in the market selling phones or PDAs.
J2ME would claim otherwise...
No, J2ME is not a phone or PDA platform. J2ME runs on those sorts of
platforms and you can run Java on your WinCE and probably your Palm
device.
Post by Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
Some people just don't get it.
I think you're just getting uppity about something not really worth
getting uppity about.
Do you like $4 SUNW? This plays a role in that.
Someone's always gotta find someTHING to
complain about and do so in a myopic, trivializing way. Sales
persons
and their personal OS is one of these things.
It is not their Personal OS. It is their Professional OS.
Either that or
someone's Sun pride is easily hurt.
If you were talking Apple pride, you might be right. Except for one
or two Solaris x86 boxes, I have 0 attachment to Sun, except wanting
to see them succeed. (disclosure, my brother is a Sun employee -- I
group up a DECcie)
Chad
I've kinda steered clear of this discussion (but read all the posts)
because it is trivial. However, as almost any (good) sales guy will
tell you, trivial things can make or break a sale. I worked at
Novell for several years in the '90's, and yet I never touched
Netware other than to mount an fs, and I rarely turned on my Win32
box. I just used my Mac and SunOS boxen, and all was good. Did I
get questions about it? Of course. Was it a big deal? No. I'm a big
fan of using the right tool for the right job, and I always produced
good results.

The conflict is that sales weenies are there doing a presentation
where it's all about impressions. My company lost a sale recently
(that was pretty much a done deal) for the simple reason that a
director that they hired after their selection had a bad taste in his
mouth from another incident with our company (oddly enough because he
chose Win32 over Solaris and was subsequently let go for that
choice). He was able to sway the company away from us and we lost
the sale.

Every time we have our Sun SE visit, I constantly chide him over
using Windows - and I have for years. However, it comes from above
him. The higher-up's haven't made it easy to use Solaris, and sales
critters have bigger things to worry about than fighting an upstream
battle (that should never have been waged to begin with.)

Personally, I think that every Sun sales person that wants to run
Windows (or a Mac...) should be allowed to. I don't think Solaris
should be an edict - at least not yet. That promotes resentment
(I've seen that with some of my friends still at Novell having to
produce a "business case" to run Windows instead of SuSE.) However,
I do think that the sales materials should be produced natively in
Solaris. So, if you're bright enough to run Solaris (lets face it,
it ain't as easy as Windows sometimes - which is saying something),
you should be doing it. If you feel you need WinXP, more power to
you, but you're gonna have these StarOffice presentations to give
instead of PowerPoint. And you're gonna have to support the thing on
your own. Then, Sun's own IT department could be an even more
valuable resource to development.

Anyway, just my 2¢
matt

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Dan Mick
2006-05-25 03:05:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
Post by Dan Mick
Post by Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
If you come to my office to sell me Solaris and you are not
running it yourself, I am not going to be impressed.
So if I come to sell you server-room blade systems, and my phone is
running Windows CE instead of Solaris, I lose?
What about my Palm?
Strawman
Sun is not in the market selling phones or PDAs.
I don't care if you are wearing an armani suit or a BOSS suit either
Some people just don't get it.
Indeed.

I believe Sun is not in the market selling laptops, either.
which was my point.



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Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
2006-05-25 03:08:11 UTC
Permalink
Dan Mick
2006-05-25 03:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Mick
I believe Sun is not in the market selling laptops, either.
which was my point.
Unfortunately, your point isn't made. Sun IS in the market selling
OS including ones that run on laptops and in the market selling
Office software (StarOffice).
I disagree that Sun's software is aimed at laptops, then, I guess. but clearly
we're not making any headway here.

I think the overriding observation I have is that *I* would not be so petty as
to demand Full OS Compliance from my OS vendor, but it's clear that a lot of
other people are. It's no surprise.


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Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
2006-05-25 03:48:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Mick
Post by Dan Mick
I believe Sun is not in the market selling laptops, either.
which was my point.
Unfortunately, your point isn't made. Sun IS in the market
selling OS including ones that run on laptops and in the market
selling Office software (StarOffice).
I disagree that Sun's software is aimed at laptops, then, I guess.
no one said aimed at, meaning that is its *primary* target. Solaris
IS being targeted at x86 including laptops -- you cannot deny that,
or why else is there seeming engineering work to make it run on laptops.

And what about StarOffice makes it not aimed at laptops or any other
"desktop" user (desk or lap based)?
Post by Dan Mick
but clearly we're not making any headway here.
I think the overriding observation I have is that *I* would not be
so petty as to demand Full OS Compliance from my OS vendor, but
it's clear that a lot of other people are. It's no surprise.
It is not pettiness, and your condescension is overwhelming. Again,
there is a reason SUNW is at $4-$5 or thereabouts, and Apple is $63+
or thereabouts (having been at $12 once, before a split or two).
Apple knows that impressions and perceptions matter, probably more
than anything in the beginning of a relationship. While I have no
direct experience with Sun / Sun VAR salesmen (I am a nobody), from
the reports here and in various blogs, Sun has not learned that yet
(or has forgotten it). Sun is driven by engineers, and in a way,
that is good, but when it comes to selling stuff, that is bad. Apple
is not run by engineers, Steve just has a damn fine bunch of them
around him (he gathers good people to make things work).

Sun doesn't get it. Apple does. (In their respective markets).

It is interesting that in general the people here (again a
generalization) saying that it doesn't matter seem to be engineer
types who work for big companies including Sun and those of us who
say it does matter work for smaller institutions, businesses or are
independent or otherwise call our own shots.

Chad


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C***@Sun.COM
2006-05-25 10:15:40 UTC
Permalink
Rich Teer
2006-05-25 03:45:56 UTC
Permalink
Ian Collins
2006-05-24 22:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Mick
Post by Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
If you come to my office to sell me Solaris and you are not running
it yourself, I am not going to be impressed.
So if I come to sell you server-room blade systems, and my phone is running
Windows CE instead of Solaris, I lose?
What about my Palm?
They can't run Solaris.

A year or so back, I visited a client who used Sparc as their main
development platform. When I fired up my laptop and they realised it
was running Solaris, they were impressed. They didn't realise it was
possible to run Solaris on x86, let alone a laptop

They had been thinking of Linux for development, but once they realised
I they could use Solaris on their laptops...

It all about impressions. Whenever I visit tech savy clients, my
Solaris laptop is always a talking point.

Ian


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John D Groenveld
2006-05-26 18:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Mick
So if I come to sell you server-room blade systems, and my phone is running
Windows CE instead of Solaris, I lose?
Good point.

During his hiatus (to investigate an Linux M&A opportunity for
Brian Sutphin and company?), Peder Ulander became familiar with
Montavista's Linux solutions for phones and handhelds. What does he
think of the opportunities for (Open)Solaris in the embedded market?

Anyone here stop by Anil Gadre and company's booth at Embedded
Systems Conference in April?
<URL:https://www.cmpevents.com/ESCw06/a.asp?option=H&V=13&MgEid=1880&X=1>

What was Anil Gadre and company's message to attendees?
I haven't seen the PR kit but given Sun's track record, I suspect Solaris
didn't even get mentioned as a Java developer platform.

John
***@acm.org



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Phillip Bruce
2006-05-25 07:03:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
There is a reason Sun's stock price is around $4 or $5 (haven't
looked recently) and Apple's is $63 or so
Chad,

I have to agree with just that. Sun has to realize that impression
of seeing their core OS running and that showing Solaris running on both
Sparc and x86 hardware (NOT just laptops) and Sun does sell x86
hardware is what the proving point of having Solaris on laptops should
be presented regardless. That way it will point out to customers that
Sun does have x86 hardware in which Solaris will run.

I would lay odds that if ALL Sun sales reps were required to have
Solaris x86 on their laptops with the ability to multi-boot and have
Windows and Linux would also show the flexibility that Solaris
is capable of doing.

I wouldn't be surprise if Sun sales do have windows when they are
presenting to a homogeneous Windows environment or to a hetrogenous
environment that may have windows there.

It very apparent Sun has products that do run in Solaris, Linux and
Windows and the other thing that bugs me is many of those products could
be ported to Solaris x86 that are ONLY sparc capable. Those are the ones
I like to see be ported to Solaris x86 as well.

Sun made the right move to x86 hardware and finally since releasing
Solaris on x86 at 2.1 version then skipping to 2.4 and never looked back
but has taken that hard road and was almost removed from Sun arsenal.
Sun admitting this was wrong move and made further strides to make
Solaris x86 work but it has to be done at the basic level and in parity
to the sparc version and that includes all the applications that Sun
produces (Which still needs works).

I see too many already running Linux but Not Solaris x86. That to me in
my opinion is what hurting Sun stock prices. They don't take priority
of having Solaris for Sparc and X86 first before Linux and Windows.

I think that needs to be changed.

Phillip





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C***@Sun.COM
2006-05-24 19:01:09 UTC
Permalink
mattghali
2006-05-25 06:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@Sun.COM
He, but next time you want to shame a sales/marketing person, why not
name him?
Hey, that's a great idea! It's not like Sun executives would react by lobbying for
your termination, using million dollar grants as leverage!

I will definately give that a try next time, Casper!

matto






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C***@Sun.COM
2006-05-25 10:21:17 UTC
Permalink
He, but next time you want to shame a sales/marketing person, why n=
ot
name him?
Hey, that's a great idea! It's not like Sun executives would react by=
lobbying for
your termination, using million dollar grants as leverage!
I will definately give that a try next time, Casper!
Not perhaps in a public forum; but perhaps so that Sunners can gently
prod him/her.

Casper


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Chris Albertson
2006-05-24 20:38:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Parvu
If one guy is running WinXP on his laptop for a presentation are you
gonna nuke him because he is from Sun and he is not running Solaris :)
Get serious. There will always gonna be people which are more
comfortable
running WinXP or Linux than Solaris on some laptop. So what ? What does
that matter so much ? Do we *all* have to run Solaris ? And do *all* Sun
folks have to run Solaris ?
They can run whatever they want on their computers. The point we
are all making is that a SALEMAN would have to be dumber then a rock
to use a competitor's product durring a sales presentation.

What would happen if Canon hired a photographer to shoot a new set
of imags for the Canon web site and word got out that they were
all shot using Nikon equipment. Sure enough photographers can use
any brand of equipment they like but what a marketing and public
relations blunder it would be.



Chris Albertson
Home: 310-376-1029 ***@yahoo.com
Office: 310-336-5189 ***@aero.org

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Chris Albertson
2006-05-24 20:37:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Parvu
If one guy is running WinXP on his laptop for a presentation are you
gonna nuke him because he is from Sun and he is not running Solaris :)
Get serious. There will always gonna be people which are more
comfortable
running WinXP or Linux than Solaris on some laptop. So what ? What does
that matter so much ? Do we *all* have to run Solaris ? And do *all* Sun
folks have to run Solaris ?
They can run whatever they want on their computers. The point we
are all making is that a SALEMAN would have to be dumber then a rock
to use a competitor's product durring a sales presentation.

What would happen if Canon hired a photographer to shoot a new set
of imags for the Canon web site and word got out that they were
all shot using Nikon equipment. Sure enough photographers can use
any brand of equipment they like but what a marketing and public
relations blunder it would be.



Chris Albertson
Home: 310-376-1029 ***@yahoo.com
Office: 310-336-5189 ***@aero.org

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Rich Teer
2006-05-24 23:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Albertson
What would happen if Canon hired a photographer to shoot a new set
of imags for the Canon web site and word got out that they were
all shot using Nikon equipment. Sure enough photographers can use
any brand of equipment they like but what a marketing and public
relations blunder it would be.
Indeed. Remember a few months ago, the fun we had a Dull's expense
because their web site trashing Solaris was hosted on ... Solaris!
Ditto for M$'s Hotmail on FreeBSD gaffe.
--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA, OpenSolaris CAB member

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-group.com/rich


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Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
2006-05-24 23:17:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich Teer
Post by Chris Albertson
What would happen if Canon hired a photographer to shoot a new set
of imags for the Canon web site and word got out that they were
all shot using Nikon equipment. Sure enough photographers can use
any brand of equipment they like but what a marketing and public
relations blunder it would be.
Indeed. Remember a few months ago, the fun we had a Dull's expense
because their web site trashing Solaris was hosted on ... Solaris!
Ditto for M$'s Hotmail on FreeBSD gaffe.
And Intel having a Mac created (this was long before Apple moved to
Intel) advertising campaign... That one made national magazines...

Chad

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chad at shire.net





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John Martinez
2006-05-24 14:02:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by william_d_hathaway
...
If the salesperson had used a Mac would that imply you need OSX in
your data center?
I have seen one Sun person bring in a PowerBook. He was using the X11
version of OpenOffice on the Mac, since there is no Aqua version of
Open/StarOffice for Mac OS X.

-john


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Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
2006-05-24 14:05:00 UTC
Permalink
Chris Ridd
2006-05-24 15:24:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Martinez
since there is no Aqua version of
Open/StarOffice for Mac OS X.
Neo Office
Native pseudo-Aqua
Even better than that (from Sun's perspective) NeoOffice is Java-based!

Cheers,

Chris


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Keith Bierman
2006-05-25 20:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Martinez
Post by william_d_hathaway
...
If the salesperson had used a Mac would that imply you need OSX in
your data center?
I have seen one Sun person bring in a PowerBook. He was using the X11
version of OpenOffice on the Mac, since there is no Aqua version of
Open/StarOffice for Mac OS X.
NeoOffice provides an Aqua interface and OpenOffice underneath. There
are some font metric issues, which may make the X11 version preferable
in some contexts (like where you need to pass the document back and
forth and don't want to have to fiddle with precise item placement).

As to the original poster, just who was the Sales person?
--
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palowoda
2006-05-24 01:27:58 UTC
Permalink
Just returned from a Sun presentation around components of the Java
Enterprise System. My role there is to determine an architecture
based on
Business Requirements as opposed to vendor driven.
The presentation was on a laptop running Windows, most of the
presentation
in Power Point and browser used was IE.
WTF, I am saying we don't need to use Microsoft servers and
products, and
the Sun sales person demonstrates otherwise.....
Well heck if he/she was using windows they didn't even need to
be there. Just use Skype video, WebX up to a big screen connected
wireless and sit back in the office and do the the presentation
from there. Even the Logitech webcams follow you around the
room as you move about. I've had demo of products done like
that right to my office. Need another expert to answer a
question just click a button have them join in. Save the fuel,
could have save a few bucks with StarOffice. All this is where
multimedia desktop technology is taking us isn't it?

---Bob






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John D Groenveld
2006-05-24 16:45:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by palowoda
Well heck if he/she was using windows they didn't even need to
be there. Just use Skype video, WebX up to a big screen connected
wireless and sit back in the office and do the the presentation
from there. Even the Logitech webcams follow you around the
<URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9311141201.AA32367%40nwg.nectec.or.th>
| We've just announced the SPARClassic M and SPARCstation 10M
| which is our camera-ready multimedia workstation. It's got a
| camera, and a hardware compression, software decompression, full
| motion video, we have video conferencing on a S-bus card, we have
| shared white board, you can send audio E-mails, you can move
| images around.

John
***@acm.org



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John Martinez
2006-05-24 17:23:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by John D Groenveld
<URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9311141201.AA32367%
40nwg.nectec.or.th>
| We've just announced the SPARClassic M and SPARCstation 10M
| which is our camera-ready multimedia workstation. It's got a
| camera, and a hardware compression, software decompression, full
| motion video, we have video conferencing on a S-bus card, we have
| shared white board, you can send audio E-mails, you can move
| images around.
Sun did have some interesting products back in the day, didn't they?
And they say Apple is ahead of their time...

-john



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John D Groenveld
2006-05-25 14:55:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Martinez
Sun did have some interesting products back in the day, didn't they?
Cue Talking Heads.
Post by John Martinez
And they say Apple is ahead of their time...
BTW does the former Apple human factors expert still work for Sun?
Is he working on JDS/Solaris usability?
Does the new CEO still see the same real need?
<URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9311141201.AA32367%40nwg.nectec.or.th>
| And then we are going to teach them how to design usable
| applications from a human factors perspective. Just because you
| make something a GUI-based thing does not make it easy to use.
| We've got world class expert that came over from Apple, a top
| expert in human factors engineering. We're going to run a seminar
| here because we see a real need.

John
***@acm.org



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Alan Coopersmith
2006-05-25 15:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by John D Groenveld
BTW does the former Apple human factors expert still work for Sun?
Presumably that was a reference to "Tog", who wrote the book (at least
two of them) on UI design, and is now at the Nielsen Norman Group with
fellow Sun alum Jakob Nielsen:

http://www.asktog.com/tog.html
--
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Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering


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Chris Albertson
2006-05-25 15:50:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Martinez
Sun did have some interesting products back in the day, didn't they?
Yes, and sadly, last saturday I took a pickup truck load of those
interesting products to a "computer recycler". The staff there
complained jokingly "Not Sun stuff. It's REALLY heavy" as they
unloaded the the old 32-bit workstations and servers. I was able to
find some sales invoises too. That Sparc 2 piza box workstaton
cost over $6000 and now it will be cut up and put in the "plastic
pile"and "meatal pile" Same with some 20" CRTs. All this stuff
still worked but was not worth the cost of the power to run it.

My theory is that computer companies make interesting products
when they control and design the "whole stack" hardware and
software. When they start using "industry standard" parts they
become just "computer assemblers" or "box movers". Sun is
not quite to the box mover state (like Dell) yet They still
have thier SPARC line.

It was sad to throw out so much really well crafted, top quality
equipment but at least it will not go to a landfill. and it
gives some disabled or otherwise unemployable peole a job.



Chris Albertson
Home: 310-376-1029 ***@yahoo.com
Office: 310-336-5189 ***@aero.org

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C***@Sun.COM
2006-05-25 18:32:44 UTC
Permalink
John D Groenveld
2006-05-25 21:52:36 UTC
Permalink
Phillip Bruce
2006-05-25 23:11:50 UTC
Permalink
Does anyone think that Apple's Powerbooks or Macbooks are anything
other than systems simply because Apple uses IBM's or Intel's
processors?
Their powerbooks are ok and I am impressed with the new Macbook with
the dual core capability. The G5 is an impressive processor with small
pipeline
and could give the sparc the run for their money. With Sparc laptops, it
way too costly. Sorry TDI(Tadpole) and others need to readjust themsleves
totally becuase of that. Not all users want true sparc compatibility, ONLY
developers do and for good reasons. But which x86 and Intel in enterprise
environments, laptops will be a focal point even for developers. I could
be wrong.
Does anyone think that the Macbook is any less of a system now
that Apple has release Bootcamp and customers now have the investment
protection with the ability to boot Windows?
I think it can be done ok maybe the underlying Darwin OS that run's the
mac can
multi-boot but how cleanly can they do this with Windows involved. Not
matter
what OS you run Windows always have to be the first OS put on. Seem
Microsoft can't get away from allowing the kernel to live anywhere else
unless it in their C drive.

I think Grub should be able to handle it ok but have not tried that even
with the
mini mac I am using. ( My x86 hardware too a dump into never land. :( )

I will say this MacBook is not bad at all especially for $1500 for that
black one
which is all metal and not plastic like the others are.





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Phillip Bruce
2006-05-25 23:29:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Bruce
Does anyone think that Apple's Powerbooks or Macbooks are anything
other than systems simply because Apple uses IBM's or Intel's
processors?
Their powerbooks are ok and I am impressed with the new Macbook with
the dual core capability. The G5 is an impressive processor with small
pipeline
and could give the sparc the run for their money. With Sparc laptops, it
way too costly. Sorry TDI(Tadpole) and others need to readjust themsleves
totally becuase of that. Not all users want true sparc compatibility, ONLY
developers do and for good reasons. But which x86 and Intel in enterprise
environments, laptops will be a focal point even for developers. I
could be wrong.
Does anyone think that the Macbook is any less of a system now
that Apple has release Bootcamp and customers now have the investment
protection with the ability to boot Windows?
I think it can be done ok maybe the underlying Darwin OS that run's
the mac can
multi-boot but how cleanly can they do this with Windows involved.
Not matter
what OS you run Windows always have to be the first OS put on. Seem
Microsoft can't get away from allowing the kernel to live anywhere
else unless it in their C drive.
I think Grub should be able to handle it ok but have not tried that
even with the
mini mac I am using. ( My x86 hardware too a dump into never land. :( )
I will say this MacBook is not bad at all especially for $1500 for
that black one
which is all metal and not plastic like the others are.
One other note, this be a good time for Sun to put back the PPC sources
and try
to get it to work as the MAC would be a good testing platform to test
the code
with.

Even if I had a MAC Intel or IBM chip in it. I want it to run Solaris. I
know, Just
love the OS a lot. :)

Phillip



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Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
2006-05-25 23:33:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Bruce
I think it can be done ok maybe the underlying Darwin OS that run's the
mac can
multi-boot but how cleanly can they do this with Windows involved.
Not
matter
what OS you run Windows always have to be the first OS put on.
Actually, that is not really true. You can add Windows later. I
have a system that boots LILO and then boots XP (actually Windows
boot loader) off of another disk.

It is easier to install Windows first but no longer necessary.

Chad
Post by Phillip Bruce
Seem
Microsoft can't get away from allowing the kernel to live anywhere else
unless it in their C drive.
---
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chad at shire.net





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Phillip Bruce
2006-05-25 23:42:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
Post by Phillip Bruce
I think it can be done ok maybe the underlying Darwin OS that run's the
mac can
multi-boot but how cleanly can they do this with Windows involved.
Not
matter
what OS you run Windows always have to be the first OS put on.
Actually, that is not really true. You can add Windows later. I
have a system that boots LILO and then boots XP (actually Windows
boot loader) off of another disk.
It is easier to install Windows first but no longer necessary.
Chad
Chad,

Ok, I'll try that on the next windows system I get if any. :) The last
time I tried XP choke on it own cord and couldn't boot at all.
I'm not going to get in any hurry to try that is for sure.

I rather get and use wine for any windows stuff I do now days which
saves me the trouble of booting to windows these days.

Phillip


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Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
2006-05-25 23:47:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Bruce
Post by Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC
Post by Phillip Bruce
I think it can be done ok maybe the underlying Darwin OS that run's the
mac can
multi-boot but how cleanly can they do this with Windows involved.
Not
matter
what OS you run Windows always have to be the first OS put on.
Actually, that is not really true. You can add Windows later. I
have a system that boots LILO and then boots XP (actually Windows
boot loader) off of another disk.
It is easier to install Windows first but no longer necessary.
Chad
Chad,
Ok, I'll try that on the next windows system I get if any. :) The last
time I tried XP choke on it own cord and couldn't boot at all.
I'm not going to get in any hurry to try that is for sure.
There are ways but don't quote me on any specific one offhand...
Google is your friend :-)

I try and avoid windows if at all possible and have not installed it
for quite a while, though this evening I will be installing it inside
a Parallels VM on my Mac Mini... My Windows box has a disk slowly
dying and I don't really want to pay money to buy new parts -- at
least until I can afford a cool water cooled system (more for the fun
of building it than anything) :-) I will also be trying to install
Solaris inside the Parallels VM on the Mini. First I have to jack
the RAM up to 2GB. Off to buy some putty knives to open the case :-)

Chad

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Chris Ridd
2006-05-26 06:19:42 UTC
Permalink
Phillip Bruce
2006-05-26 08:35:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Bruce
Does anyone think that the Macbook is any less of a system now
that Apple has release Bootcamp and customers now have the investment
protection with the ability to boot Windows?
I think it can be done ok maybe the underlying Darwin OS that run's the
mac can
multi-boot but how cleanly can they do this with Windows involved. Not
matter
You're slightly confused - Darwin (the kernel + lots of user-space non-GUI
stuff) does not multi-boot, it is one of the operating systems that
*can* be
booted.
No, I'm not confused by Darwin or any other UNIX variant. It is Windows that
has always been in the past a Pain the BUTT because of their heavy
reliant on
Windows being the first partition on a single physical hard drive. If yo
only
have a single drive in your system that use to matter pre-XP versions
that is.

Just old habits that never dies. :)
Think of Boot Camp as a boot manager (like grub, but with style) and a
bunch
of hardware drivers so Windows can work a bit better.
I kept thinking Boot Camp was something from Cisco which is their cramed
course
on their switches. (Been in the industry too long. :) )
Post by Phillip Bruce
I think Grub should be able to handle it ok but have not tried that even
with the
mini mac I am using. ( My x86 hardware too a dump into never land. :( )
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID_Partition_Table>
Solaris 10 1/06 has some GPT support
<http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/817-5093/6mkisoq1g?a=view> although it
suggests you can't boot from one or use smc on one (no loss there :-)
Thanks for the link, I heard of GPT but I think EFI has some advantages
as other
OS's I know support EFI as well. I know we have been discussing this on the
list. I'll do some more reading on GPT before I can comment more on it.
Cheers,
Chris
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Al Hopper
2006-05-25 21:56:46 UTC
Permalink
Phillip Bruce
2006-05-25 22:17:39 UTC
Permalink
During the dot com bomb, a shitload (technical term (TM)) of used Sun gear
changed hands and it cost Sun a bunch of new hardware sales. The stuff is
so well built that it'll run right out of a packing carton. Sun was a
"victim" of its own superior hardware engineering! :)
A bunch of enterprising individuals also broke down big iron servers and
sold it by the board/CPU/IO-card/memory SIMM/power-supply etc..
Now try finding any of the "good stuff" on EBay at a decent discount...
Al,

I agree that why I like my new IBM acronym - Irons Being Melted.
Sun finally learned the hardship of their Big IRON while IBM still
trying to stuff down people throats.

Phillip


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James Dickens
2006-05-24 04:14:13 UTC
Permalink
Just returned from a Sun presentation around components of the Java
Enterprise System. My role there is to determine an architecture based on
Business Requirements as opposed to vendor driven.
The presentation was on a laptop running Windows, most of the presentation
in Power Point and browser used was IE.
WTF, I am saying we don't need to use Microsoft servers and products, and
the Sun sales person demonstrates otherwise.....
perhaps he couldn't find a sun re-seller to sell him a sun box like
documented at

http://uadmin.blogspot.com/2006/05/suns-resellers-hurting-sun.html

and

http://uadmin.blogspot.com/2006/05/latest-from-sun-reseller.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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palowoda
2006-05-24 05:26:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Dickens
Just returned from a Sun presentation around components of the Java
Enterprise System. My role there is to determine an architecture based on
Business Requirements as opposed to vendor driven.
The presentation was on a laptop running Windows, most of the presentation
in Power Point and browser used was IE.
WTF, I am saying we don't need to use Microsoft servers and
products, and
Post by James Dickens
the Sun sales person demonstrates otherwise.....
perhaps he couldn't find a sun re-seller to sell him a sun box like
documented at
http://uadmin.blogspot.com/2006/05/suns-resellers-hurting-sun.html
and
http://uadmin.blogspot.com/2006/05/latest-from-sun-reseller.html
Gee I just read an article in the Var Business magazine where
the Vars voted Sun as the number one OEM to deal with. Go figure.
In anycase on the small quantities isn't an advantage to just
purchase it through the online sunstore site? Please John
no cracks about the ERP system. I doubt anybody here knows
what's going on with that anyways (although I suspect some
of SeeBeyond technology is being integrated). Come to think
of it if the sales critters could by a preinstalled Solaris
laptop via the Sun Store it might help with these situations.
Does General Dynamics only sell into the military market
with Solaris laptops? Or are there other independent vars
selling Solaris laptops other than General Dynamics?

---Bob






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John D Groenveld
2006-05-24 17:37:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by palowoda
no cracks about the ERP system. I doubt anybody here knows
what's going on with that anyways (although I suspect some
of SeeBeyond technology is being integrated). Come to think
Seems if Jonathan Schwartz is committed to using transparency
as an aid to reforming Sun's lumbering bureaucracy and back asswards
business processes then he's over due to blog about his view of the
"ERP system" as a help or a hindrance to profitability instead of
complaining about Gartner analysts' stupid questions about which
engineers should be RIFd.

For instance, when MBA consultants from McKinsey reviewed Sun's
Metropolis workstation eBay auction experiment, what did they find?

Are their recommendations awaiting action by the executive team
or the board?

John
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John D Groenveld
2006-05-25 15:27:49 UTC
Permalink
John Martinez
2006-05-24 13:59:30 UTC
Permalink
Just returned from a Sun presentation around components of the Java
Enterprise System. My role there is to determine an architecture
based on
Business Requirements as opposed to vendor driven.
The presentation was on a laptop running Windows, most of the
presentation
in Power Point and browser used was IE.
WTF, I am saying we don't need to use Microsoft servers and
products, and
the Sun sales person demonstrates otherwise.....
Most of the presentations I've seen from Sun folks in the past year
or two have been on either Solaris or Linux. Of the one or two that
were on Windows, StarOffice was used instead of MS Office. So I may
have had a different sales "experience."

-john


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Chris Albertson
2006-05-24 20:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Yes Sun salepeople are dumber then rocks. That shouldn't be
news to anyone who's delt with them

But it's not just
Sun. Did you hear what Dell plans to do? They read that Apple
was doing a billion dollars a quarter through their retail
stores. (yes 4E9 per year)
So they are building two retail store of their own
except in these "stores" customers will NOT be able to buy any
product. They can look but if they want to buy they will have
order on-line same as they can do from home. Sounds like a
retail plan designed to fail.

The last time I talked to a Sun sales guy I asked him if he had
seen the Sun computer we were talking about. He said "only
on the web site". He was looking at the same web page I was.

What next? I go to Ford to buy another pickup truck and the
salesman asks if I want a test drive. I say yes so he let's
me drive his BMW
Just returned from a Sun presentation around components of the Java
Enterprise System. My role there is to determine an architecture
based on
Business Requirements as opposed to vendor driven.
The presentation was on a laptop running Windows, most of the
presentation
in Power Point and browser used was IE.
WTF, I am saying we don't need to use Microsoft servers and products,
and
the Sun sales person demonstrates otherwise.....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Chris Albertson
Home: 310-376-1029 ***@yahoo.com
Office: 310-336-5189 ***@aero.org

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